It’s about to go off!

Re: It’s about to go off!

SonofPricey 19 Sep 2019 13:16 pm said..

stevieb wrote:
SonofPricey wrote:If Saracens have broken the rules around the cap then they should be punished. A significant fine plus a reduction in their cap (beginning next season) would be my preferred outcome. I don't believe it would be fair to the players already in place - particularly those away on International duty - to have their livelihoods put into question at such short notice.

After the World Cup it may actually be immaterial in some cases about the whereabouts of some of the key England players - at least for the next 2 years. If England have a good or great tournament, the likes of Itoje, Farrell, Vunipola (Billy and Mako) may decide to cash-in and take an international 'sabbatical', playing in France or Japan.


And cash in with their agent able to demand inflated wages "...look at all the 'winners medals' my client has on his cv".


I don't quite see your point. Even if Saracens were 'stripped' of their titles etc, the players are still world class. Its not as if the French or Japanese clubs wouldn't be aware of their quality. I think we need to draw a line between the club and the players - and I would even say, the owner and the hierarchy that directs the contractual arrangements.

Fundamentally Saracens, as a business, are in the medium to long term currently unsustainable. Unless something drastically changes the inevitable will happen and there will be an implosion. If they are forced to cut their cloth now, it might actually be helpful.
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Re: It’s about to go off!

chumba 19 Sep 2019 14:30 pm said..

According to the Bristol Post it's worse than we even realised:

Saracens have won five of the last four Premiership grand finals, and were the runners up to Northampton in 2013/14 when it took extra time for the Saints to beat them. Sarries have also won three of the last four Champions Cup finals - cementing their dominance on the domestic scene.
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Re: It’s about to go off!

stevieb 19 Sep 2019 17:06 pm said..

SonofPricey wrote:
stevieb wrote:
SonofPricey wrote:If Saracens have broken the rules around the cap then they should be punished. A significant fine plus a reduction in their cap (beginning next season) would be my preferred outcome. I don't believe it would be fair to the players already in place - particularly those away on International duty - to have their livelihoods put into question at such short notice.

After the World Cup it may actually be immaterial in some cases about the whereabouts of some of the key England players - at least for the next 2 years. If England have a good or great tournament, the likes of Itoje, Farrell, Vunipola (Billy and Mako) may decide to cash-in and take an international 'sabbatical', playing in France or Japan.


And cash in with their agent able to demand inflated wages "...look at all the 'winners medals' my client has on his cv".


I don't quite see your point. Even if Saracens were 'stripped' of their titles etc, the players are still world class. Its not as if the French or Japanese clubs wouldn't be aware of their quality. I think we need to draw a line between the club and the players - and I would even say, the owner and the hierarchy that directs the contractual arrangements.

Fundamentally Saracens, as a business, are in the medium to long term currently unsustainable. Unless something drastically changes the inevitable will happen and there will be an implosion. If they are forced to cut their cloth now, it might actually be helpful.


You don't think "4 League champions medals and 3 x European cup champions medals" on a cv bumps up a player's salary demand when the agents is shopping him around? If Saracens were to be stripped of those titles then the cv would change of course, but there is no way in a million years that's going to happen.
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Re: It’s about to go off!

Russglos 19 Sep 2019 17:22 pm said..

You don't think "4 League champions medals and 3 x European cup champions medals" on a cv bumps up a player's salary demand when the agents is shopping him around? If Saracens were to be stripped of those titles then the cv would change of course, but there is no way in a million years that's going to happen.

I think the CVs would remain unchanged, bar the use of an asterisk here and there.
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Re: It’s about to go off!

vitesse 19 Sep 2019 18:50 pm said..

Having read this thread - and all the others previously - my pessimistic eye tells me that PRL will drop the ball. Well the have already by passing to arbitration...... nothing will change as the issue will be fudged by PRL..... It is down to us, the supporters, to do something. Me..? I'm never going to a Glos v sorries game again. I would rather spend my pension at CG supporting a Glos v Briz/Glos v H.Queens/Glos v Exe match. I have NO faith in PRL putting their hands down their pants and taking a grip....! It's getting too much like kissball, too much money talking too much.....
Rant over..... I think.....
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Re: It’s about to go off!

Not1eyed 19 Sep 2019 20:05 pm said..

You are all talking like it’s a forgone conclusion they have broken the rules. Let’s not forget exploiting a loophole is not breaking the rules. IF proved they haven’t broken a rule, as I suspect, is the case but just exploiting loopholes the I applaud Nigel Wray for looking after his players financial interests after rugby
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Re: It’s about to go off!

Peanutcoxy 19 Sep 2019 20:47 pm said..

Not1eyed wrote:You are all talking like it’s a forgone conclusion they have broken the rules. Let’s not forget exploiting a loophole is not breaking the rules. IF proved they haven’t broken a rule, as I suspect, is the case but just exploiting loopholes the I applaud Nigel Wray for looking after his players financial interests after rugby

The salary cap rules were written to include a clause which states in effect, ‘it is the responsibility of member clubs to inform the salary cap manager of any loophole that is found in the regulations’. I’m sure someone can state what regulation this is under, but I’ve definitely read it.
Found it, 2.3 (a) (i)
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Re: It’s about to go off!

Peanutcoxy 19 Sep 2019 20:53 pm said..

Sarries will call it an interpretation not a loophole!!
The older I get the faster I was
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Re: It’s about to go off!

madjake 19 Sep 2019 21:22 pm said..

Peanutcoxy wrote:Sarries will call it an interpretation not a loophole!!


Didn't work for Jimmy Carr.... :D
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Re: It’s about to go off!

DieTrying 19 Sep 2019 21:47 pm said..

Not1eyed wrote:You are all talking like it’s a forgone conclusion they have broken the rules. Let’s not forget exploiting a loophole is not breaking the rules. IF proved they haven’t broken a rule, as I suspect, is the case but just exploiting loopholes the I applaud Nigel Wray for looking after his players financial interests after rugby


As I said in an earlier post, I get where he's coming from, but after the 2014 rule rewrite which all Clubs bought into you could argue that :

1. As a "respected" businessman, he would have spotted the loophole and pointed out to stop any future embarrassments
OR
2. As a "respected" business man, he spotted it and said cynically nothing.

The Saracens business model is unsustainable without his cash. ( 2016/17 Avg Att 16466, 2017/18 Avg Att 15618 & 2018/19 Avg att 12207 ). The capacity of their Stadium is reduced to 8500 for 20019/20 due to the building works on the New Stand / JV with the local Council. His net worth is currently about £300M, of which he wrote off £48M owed by himself to himself. When he pops his clogs, his kin may not be as enamoured with Rugby, as he is, see our own Club or Southampton FC.

Co-Investments: A cracking idea, yet Ben Morgan has managed to set is own firm up without any cash from the Club. Yet "Key " players at Saracens who are also paid by England, are that destitute that they need a "loan" from the Boss. NOTE: England squad players will get up to £220K if they win RWC19, reduced if they go out early and the bonus starts from the QF's. NOTE 2: If Japan win it they'll only get £38K and trust me, if Japan go for broke on contracts post RWC, the money paid in France is small change.

For me, whilst I applaud the fact he "saved" Saracens in a similar way to Tom Walkinshaw did for us, I despair at another "alleged" manipulation of the rules. We've been here Pre 2014 with "Salarygate 1", and before GM jumps in, we along with others, were accused of the same thing. It was sorted out with a tightening of said rules which led to "Salarygate 2" in 2014. Now we're going to get "Salarygate 3". Going forward PRL should employ Forensic accountants, raise the fine punisment to £1 for every £1 overspend and an automatic relegation. I'd also take a serious look down the M5 South of us.
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